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Post by rhyneth on Jul 10, 2019 8:01:00 GMT -5
Right, so, after thinking on it for a bit and scratching my head. I'd like to bring attention to one of the biggest aids tm thing regarding this game's balancing; which is both a product of the admin team approving too much wacky shit incorporated along with a certain clan existing that sets a bad precedent. I'm talking about crowd control and moreso the fact that at the moment, victims are utterly at mercy on skillcard descriptions and notes because there's a lack of guidelines for crowd control in general, thus making any kind of crowd control technique very valuable, very desirable and ultimately one of the best things you can invest PP into at the moment.
Binds are the new stuns and dazes are the new binds; if you can't get approved for a stun, word it as a bind, it still cuts off movement and still prevents dodging your follow-up attack and it is most likely going to be approved by the admin team.
Now that's fine, but the issue is, there's no guidelines for Crowd Control; so this means, each and every crowd control effect technique in this game, has a different set of rules and so on, regardless. There should be a single guide that explains the ins-and-out and makes crowd control less oppressive, since right now, crowd control effects are all too common -- I mean hey there was an entire clan put into the game that has far too many fucking CC techniques involved and secondly, because they're so fucking great, everyone and their mothers are going for them.
Might as well name them the new puppets.
Biggest issues right now, caused by a lack of guidelines as well as admin oversight:
*Got hit by a stun or any other CC effect on one turn? You can currently, then get hit by another one the following turn; there's no CC immunity window in this game, you can chain CC onto someone if you really want to and especially if you're using bunshins. We need guidelines for this, nobody wants to be stunlocked and forced to ask for a ruling, only for an admin to go 'Well uhhh, that's just how it works lol'. I'm not playing a fucking MOBA; least I don't think so.
*Bunshins in general, despite, most kinds of bunshins only supposedly having 1/10th of the user's power, can still dole out the full effect of a CC skillcard; surely there should be guidelines about this? Maybe downgrading any stunning, binding, dazing effect or whatnot, into a mere interrupt, or allowing people to escape from any technique created by a bunshin, much easier unless the attacker has some sort of trap master bunshin semi-unique custom they applied for or if they have a special kind of bunshin. This would actually prevent most cases of CC chaining with bunshins at a first glance which you can feasibly do in this game, because hey, nobody has made a general ruleset or guide about crowd control and it's hardset limitations to prevent abuse of such mechanics.
*Most cards are always at least one turn of 'yeah you can't do anything chief, you need a higher tier than my main prof tier because yas queen', which makes most CC skillcards in this game horrendously oppressive at the early stages of the game. Thus unless you build in a specific manner which is actually very suboptimal outside of Tai, you have two choices; dodge or die.
*We have an entire clan filled with dodge or die jutsu which is a bad idea; the Kushaku clan is an example of why, we need an actual set of guidelines regarding crowd control, I am not sure why we put the game up without considering how powerful CC is, especially when there's no mention in the notes for the conditions of avoiding said techniques, only breaking out of them in terms of strength tier against whatever their tier. It also basically says, yeah, the admin team is okay with dodge or die jutsus and confirmed effects, provided it isn't a 'confirmed hit', but we all know how that shit flies.
*Nearly every CC skillcard in this game is 'strength vs attacker's prof tier', why? This means only Taijutsuists are gonna be able to ignore CC via cores; everyone else is forced to apply for customs that are anti-CC as of right now. Which is fair enough, makes it so some builds are weaker to others; but most builds do not prioritise strength, what about ninjutsuists who get struck by a bind? Best hope they have a jutsu to remove CC, hyuck. My suggestion; allow endurance or reflexes to work against different kind of CC, endurance against stuns, reflexes against dazes and interrupts, strength against binds.
*It's far too easy to just apply for a C rank that can provide a massive advantage; the excuse being because on it's own it does no damage, it's okay for it to lock someone down for a least a turn, since it seems to me most of the approval of jutsus right now is purely based on that card's raw offensive power potential, rather than the technique's utility, which sure makes sense? But some thought should have been thrown in for the follow-up potential as well. Seriously, I've seen some very wacky C ranks in action, that are simply utility but that utility sets up even more damage potential, because now that target is boned tm.
*The majority of CC skillcards have no cooldown attached to them, couple this currently with no CC immunity window after getting struck by CC? Well, congratulations, you got poor balancing lads.
We need some guidelines on this topic, if not, crowd control will remain to be far too good; it needs some attention towards it, to stop it being one of those 'things'.
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Post by vartio on Jul 10, 2019 9:06:20 GMT -5
I kinda agree, but with how much god modding exists to completely loldodge attacks non-stop (we will never forget Kazuhiko, who took an hour of complaining and an admin call for him to accept an INDIRECT hit), binds feel like a hard necessity (I've made two myself, mostly because of Kazuhiko). If you don't RP a bind, right now Kawarimis rofldodge you, most will loldodge you, and the sort.
I think in general, though, yes, more defined guidelines are needed. Clearer definitions (I have I believe a unique codeword to my info for CC), clearer effects, strengths, weaknesses, etc.
I do think we also need to establish 'hard', 'soft', and 'slow' as terms. Hard being things that hold you in place for a turn to different degrees (Knockdown, stun, bind), soft being things that affect your char without slowng them or holding 'em in place (Daze), and "Slows" being those that reduce movement speed (Kazuhiko's Shimagakure).
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Post by rhyneth on Jul 10, 2019 9:15:50 GMT -5
But now the current mindset is; if I use a CC skillcard, it MUST hit, because it's CC. CC Skillcards are being treated as confirmed hits, to get even more confirmed hits, I consider that much more cancer than loldodging; least with loldodging, if you get loldodged, you're allowed to do the same back.
CC? Nah, it's just not fun, as soon as you see a CC skillcard and you ain't got a lol anti-CC skillcard to match? Might as well just go sleep. Getting stunned for even one turn in a fight unless you've doubled down hard on endurance is far too deciding, in my opinion.
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apf
Genin
krewsie aint shit
Posts: 92
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Post by apf on Jul 10, 2019 9:29:52 GMT -5
I currently have two cc cards. Water Prison and then a custom I made. My custom takes one turn in advance to set up and then turn cooldown. It also has the strength vs elemental tier. It's comparatively weaker than most too. It doesn't bind someone's entire body. It's strictly a cqc counter. I wouldn't say it's unfair, at least in my case.
However! I do think all CC should have turn cooldowns and defined methods of shutting it down. Though, I haven't really had to deal with CC, not much anyways.
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Post by vartio on Jul 10, 2019 9:32:03 GMT -5
I could agree with APF's pov.
Also yeah, NO CC should be treated as an 'auto hit'. Kazuhiko bitching I predicted his ice-field capture for example is one where I swear they were being idiotic.
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Post by rhyneth on Jul 10, 2019 9:39:03 GMT -5
I currently have two cc cards. Water Prison and then a custom I made. My custom takes one turn in advance to set up and then turn cooldown. It also has the strength vs elemental tier. It's comparatively weaker than most too. It doesn't bind someone's entire body. It's strictly a cqc counter. I wouldn't say it's unfair, at least in my case. However! I do think all CC should have turn cooldowns and defined methods of shutting it down. Though, I haven't really had to deal with CC, not much anyways.
Most of the CC cards I've seen, usually pop instantly on the turn it happens and CCs the target for the next turn, which is fine but there's little counterplay against it, especially when the current mindset is; if it's crowd control, it's a confirmed hit.
Water prison? That requires sustained contact to perform. Custom CCs that require a turn to set up? That's fair.
The only issue right now is there's an abundance of CC techniques that be executed instantaneously with little counterplay available and people just basically going "yeah it stuns/binds/dazes you" and playing it off as if it's an autohit, which is much much much worse than people loldodging.
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Post by john on Jul 10, 2019 13:18:54 GMT -5
Since this entire post is clearly just about the Kushaku I'm just going to speak as if it's about them. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. First off yeah there should probably be some sort of ruling that the same Kushaku can't bind an already bound person unless they specifically have a skillcard that does something to that length. But on the other hand I don't see the issue of another Kushaku binding someone that's already bound, it's in the same avenue of really any other technique gangbang in this game and I don't see the issue with that. For bunshins I've seen people talk about them as if they're operating at 1/10 the power of the user, but I've never really seen that being put into practice. And while I agree towards webs being weaker if a clone were to use them I also realize at this stage of the game that asking for such is essentially just going to make any webs used by a clone useless, as everyone will just be able to break free from them instantly. I always figured that most characters not building their characters into a strong tai based build generally built for higher tiers of speed which in turn would allow them to dodge the webs. As for the dodge or die argument, quite literally everything I've seen people do in this game is dodge or die. I'm still failing to understand why speed in general isn't a good enough means to dodge really anything coming at you from afar which in this case would include Kushaku webs. And again most people from what I've seen roleplay most of what they have as being the killing blow or quite close to it. If you were going to get hit by webs then you were probably going to get hit by that ball of fire. Yes it is nice when some builds are weaker towards other builds, and in this case I'd agree taijutsu based build do have the advantage of straight up ignoring the cc if they're strong enough. But on the other hand if we're going to ignore cores like speed I'd say elementalist based builds or whatever have the same kind of luxuries but through their profession instead of their cores. Like let's say I had Katon as my main element. Maybe I could try to create a jutsu that would require only one or perhaps no seals at all that would just simply light my character on fire, while basically a useless and pointless techniques for the most part it could be a good way to counter webs. Or let's say I have doton ar my primary element, maybe I could create a sort of jutsu that would dry out the next substance I touched to a minor degree then in turn I'd be able to say touch and dry out a portion of the webs and break free from the opening created.
Also randomly if you don't mind me asking. Who are the Kushaku that are roleplaying binds in such an annoying manner? From the players I know unless someone new has joined as of late it has to be like one person.
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Post by rhyneth on Jul 10, 2019 14:36:05 GMT -5
The topic isn't about "just only kuskahu", if it was, the title of the thread would refer to such.
This thread is more about the current state of crowd control within the game; Kushaku just so happen to be one of the offenders for this since the clan has alot of it's techniques based on crowd control and is very oppressive to fight against as a result.
When I speak about CC, I am not exclusively referring to Kushaku but they are included in it by proxy of the clan techniques they have, my concerns spans the various abundance of jutsus with CC properties. Secondly this is more of a concern owing to the lack of definite ground rules being set in stone for crowd control and definition being given to the various kinds of CC, such as stuns, binds, dazes, blinds ect.
Due to a lack of guidelines and ground rules, there's no restrictions or anything in place to prevent one from chain locking targets with the aid of bunshins and so on.
I also don't see how making an assumption regarding the OP before it is confirmed stands for a good argument and ontop of that whilst you yourself sees no problem with the current state of things, that's most likely due to you benefiting from such a style of play, which I guess is okay for you.
But there's a reason why people tend to think the Kushaku are heavyhanded on CC and as to why you made an assumption of the topic, since most of that clan's design resolves around CC, perhaps excessively so. And if CC got actual guidelines and some hard and soft limitations that's weaken the clan a little and make it less oppressive in a 1v1 situation.
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Post by john on Jul 10, 2019 15:22:37 GMT -5
We can either be nice and just talk about the issue you want to talk about or make pointless jabs. Yeah sure I play a Kushaku but I also let people roleplay however they want and will probably never try and enforce anything on anyone, so quit with that right there.
And again I'll say that using a web/bind/whatever on someone whose already bound sounds stupid and probably shouldn't be a thing outside of things that are just for fluff.
I'm also fine with whatever comes from this since I do very much so enjoy seeing people enjoying the game and rather dislike seeing them dissatisfied so more ground rules to cc is fine with me, I'd just like them to make sense. The reason I brought up my thoughts on Kushaku is because the arguments I've generally seen about them are rather hyperbolic, sure there might be someone with something bull shitty out there that needs some correction but I don't see that with the base clan techniques.
If a web is shot at you and you see it, you're just as likely to dodge it as say a fireball. If you don't see it and are caught, you're also probably going to get hit and burnt to death by a fireball you didn't see. If we're going to look at everything in a funnel there's a lot of things that are going to seem op that anyone can use to justify their argument, when arguing something needs to be looked at I think we should look at the general type of scenarios it might be used in.
Like for example since you've brought up clones and water prison in different posts, what if a clone were to use water prison? Is it still the same exact strength as if the user used water prison? Personally I'd expect to get destroyed by someone using it on water like for example around Kirigakure, but I'd expect them either fail to keep it up or have to expend a great amount of their reserves to keep it up in the say the deserts of Sunagakure.
Personally I think that the stronger webs and arms that come with it should lock the given character into that build path as if it were a profession to stop them going too far with whatever unique or whatever is out there to stop things from getting too crazy. You could in turn also make the uniques for Kushaku higher tiers of Uniques to cut down on more people from getting them. I'd say more about these 1v1 situations I hear a lot about, but until I'm given a sort of scenario as to why the webs in questions are better then anything else I can't honestly comment on it.
As for other binds in general I can't really comment on that since I don't use them personally.
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Post by rhyneth on Jul 10, 2019 18:40:40 GMT -5
As I said, this thread isn't specifically about Kushaku but due to the design of their clan, they fall into it, by proxy of having an overly large focus on crowd control properties; you're the only one making and taking it personally.
The issue is that crowd control needs guidelines to it, just to prevent cases of chaining it excessively and giving it some description of how it's supposed to be viewed, since right now; most people pick up CC jutsu to counter 'loldodging' and speak of it as an autohit pretty much, which is just as annoying as loldodging. Since then it becomes like the war on drugs; constantly escalating until we reach levels of stupidity -- Remember spark counter and then spark counter counter?
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Post by john on Jul 10, 2019 18:45:47 GMT -5
If the issue is chaining, why not just add a stipulation that you can't bind someone already in a bind? As for the whole autohit thing I don't really think any rule could change that, since it just sounds like what a dick of a player would do.
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Post by rhyneth on Jul 10, 2019 19:31:47 GMT -5
Either way, it'd be nice if the admin team addresses crowd control and puts in a one turn immunity window after a CC effect wears off. At the moment, there's nothing, nothing at all nadda.
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Post by okowo on Jul 11, 2019 7:32:37 GMT -5
hello, kushaku kalista here
we constantly get a lot of stick about our cc/binds, but in all honesty, there are sufficient ways to deal with it.
i also believe there is a misconception that everyone should be equally able to do x or y. builds are meant to have weaknesses to them - where a ninjutsu practitioner will be great at range, they will lack in close range and strength. in the same way this is how it is for close-ranged combatants.
there are ways for both ninjutsuists and tai/ken specs to escape from Kushaku webs, and other binds as well unrelated to us
"For bunshins I've seen people talk about them as if they're operating at 1/10 the power of the user, but I've never really seen that being put into practice. And while I agree towards webs being weaker if a clone were to use them I also realize at this stage of the game that asking for such is essentially just going to make any webs used by a clone useless, as everyone will just be able to break free from them instantly."
i disagree with this. bunshins (elemental bunshins, at that) have 1/10th of the user's power based on strength and more physical cores - this doesn't affect their chakra manipulation.
as for stacking binds, i can see why it could be annoying, but there isn't any reason why in-character i would not be able to strengthen a bind or throw another bind on once someone escapes. there is no physical or spiritual force which prevents it, which is why even thinking to add it would be a bad idea.
i believe the true issue lies in people building incorrectly while the misconception that one should be able to deal with everything that comes their way looms.
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somono
Academy Student
Posts: 31 
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Post by somono on Jul 11, 2019 8:08:05 GMT -5
haven't read any of this— though I prolly will later— but imma point to one fight in canon in particular.
kidomaru v.s the sasuke retrieval squad.
there was absolutely no way for anyone EXCEPT neji to take kidomaru on, that's the reason why he said "I'm the only one that can fight this dude, go ahead."
unless you're able to counter what your opponent dishes out, you're pretty much fucked. it's simple at the end of the day.
if you want guidelines, go ahead, but at the end of the day most won't be able to fuck w/ niggas that got CC, that's a given.
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Post by rhyneth on Jul 11, 2019 8:24:02 GMT -5
"For bunshins I've seen people talk about them as if they're operating at 1/10 the power of the user, but I've never really seen that being put into practice. And while I agree towards webs being weaker if a clone were to use them I also realize at this stage of the game that asking for such is essentially just going to make any webs used by a clone useless, as everyone will just be able to break free from them instantly." i disagree with this. bunshins (elemental bunshins, at that) have 1/10th of the user's power based on strength and more physical cores - this doesn't affect their chakra manipulation. as for stacking binds, i can see why it could be annoying, but there isn't any reason why in-character i would not be able to strengthen a bind or throw another bind on once someone escapes. there is no physical or spiritual force which prevents it, which is why even thinking to add it would be a bad idea. i believe the true issue lies in people building incorrectly while the misconception that one should be able to deal with everything that comes their way looms.
If binds are based on the strength of the technique against the target's strength, to keep a target locked down, then they should be able to break out easier from CC originating from a Bunshin if it operates on the pretense of strength, Imo.
Secondly, the issue is that whilst Ninjutsuists were supposed to be weak to CC and so on, but they have the advantage of keeping range; the real people who suffer from excessive CC employed against them are people who focus on CQC a lot; having to trade speed or another vital core to gapclose, with strength is an iffy way to look at it, Ninjutsuists don't need a core to determine their damage for example, CQC however it's mostly prof + strength to do that. I don't think it's a matter of building incorrectly, moreso that there's only one defined way to deal with CC if hit and that's the strength core, if you don't want to be hit, you only have the choice to outright dodging it. But if people dodge it, the whole "wow you loldodged me" drama comes into play, since people use CC to prevent loldodging.
It's not a matter of being able to deal with everything that comes their way, but moreso being able to at least react to it without the same result happening twice-over. And.
If that's the case, then everyone should just start applying for CC and using it every turn and making every fight into a CC vs CC battle. Since without guidelines or some measure of sanity checking, things will escalate until it gets worse.
In all honesty, if there were sufficient enough ways to deal with CC, then this thread wouldn't have been put up, nor would it be a concern; but since there's no guidelines or anything to make CC a tool instead of a necessity at this point, then that means everyone needs to apply for CC techniques otherwise they can't 'compete'.
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